We often read in this newsgroup complaints about the barbaric (and very non-Islamic) punishments imposed in some so-called Muslim countries. Those who complain are right to complain. The vast majority of Muslims live in countries where the awful punishments reported here are never practised. In the places where they are, they are either the result of fanatical and deviant application of regligious principles or the misuse of religion as a pretext for gaining and maintaining political control. Often both factors are at work. The places that come to mind are Afghanistan (during the Taliban regime), Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Sudan and non-federal jurisdictions in Nigeria. Such practices are unheard of in places like Morocco, Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Tunisia, etc. What strikes me in the comments posted here is the apparent lack of any understanding by Americans of their own past in the matter of punishment and the absence of any humility resulting from their own past religious extremism. The role of a people who has progressed beyond their own barbarity is to encourage, promote and incite similar progress among other peoples, who are at an earliar stage of social development. It is not to forget the past and assume a holier-than-thou attitude. The following is taken from a much longer article found at: <http://www.rm-r.net/~getch/punishments/curious/chapter-11.html There is nothing more abhorrent to the general sentiment of humanity to-day than the universal custom of all civilized nations, until the present century, of branding and maiming criminals. In these barbarous methods of degrading criminals the colonists in America followed the customs and copied the laws of the fatherland. Our ancestors were not squeamish. The sight of a man lopped of his ears, or slit of his nostrils, or with a seared brand or great gash in his forehead or cheek could not affect the stout stomachs that cheerfully and eagerly gathered around the bloody whipping-post and the gallows. Let us recount the welcome of New England Christians to the first Quakers on American soil. In 1656 the vanguard, two women, Ann Austin and Mary Fisher, appeared in Boston, from the Barbadoes. They were promptly imprisoned and speedily sent back whence they came; and a premonitory law was passed to punish shipmasters who presumed to bring over more Quakers. Others immediately followed, however and fierce laws and cruel sentences greeted them; within four years after that first appearance scores of Quakers had been stripped naked, whipped, pilloried, stocked, caged, imprisoned, laid neck and heels, branded and maimed; and four had been hanged in Boston by our Puritan forefathers. ...Here is an account of a Quaker's treatment in New Haven for worshipping God in his chosen way: ' The Drum was Beat, the People gather'd, Norton was fetch'd and stripp'd to the Waste, and set with his Back to the Magistrates, and given in their View Thirty-six cruel Stripes with a knotted cord, and his hand made fast in the Stocks where they had set his Body before, and burn'd very deep with a Red-hot Iron with H. for Heresie. ' Quaker women were punished with equal ferocity. Bishop says of Mary Clark: ' Her tender Body ye unmercifully tore with twenty stripes of a three-fold-corded- knotted whip; as near as the Hangman could all in one place, fetching his Stroaks with the greatest Strength & Advantage. ' The constables of twelve Massachusetts and New Hampshire towns were notified of four rougue and vagabond Quakers named Anna Coleman, Mary Tompkins, Alice Andrews and Alice Ambrose. 'You are enjoined to make them fast to the cart-tail & draw them through your several towns, and whip them on their naked backs not exceeding ten stripes in each town, and so convey them from Constable to Constable on your Perill?' These women were whipped until the blood ran down their shoulders and breasts, and the men of the town of Salisbury rose in righteous wrath and tore them away from the cart and the constables. Quakers were ordered never to return after being banished from any town. In the Massachusetts Colonial Records of the year 1657 read the penalty for disobediently returning: 'A Quaker if male for the first offense shall have one of his eares cutt off; for the second offense have his other eare cutt off; a woman shalbe severely whipt; for the third offense they, he or she, shall have their tongues bored through with a hot iron.' They were also to be branded with the letter R on the right shoulder. They were called 'blasphemous hereticks' by the magistrates, and any who read books of their devilish opinions were to be punished with severity. New York and Virginia were likewise intolerant and cruel to the Quakers, but were less visited by them than Massachusetts. ln the despotism of early Virginia, under the Code of Martial Law established by Sir Thomas Dale, the fierceness of punishment was appalling.... Under the laws proclaimed by Dale, absence from church was a capital offense. One man was broken on the wheel.... Blasphemy was punished by boring the tongue with a red hot bodkin; one offender was thus punished and chained to a tree to die. A Mr. Barnes of Bermuda Hundred, for uttering detracting words against another Virginia gentleman, was condemned to have his tongue bored through with an awl, to pass through a guard of forty men, and be butted by every one of them. At the end to be knocked down and footed out of the fort, which must have effectively finished Mr. Barnes of Virginia. Yet Dale was an ardent Christian, beloved by his pastor, who said he was ' a man of great knowledge in divinity and a good conscience in all things'.... In Maryland blasphemy was similarly punished. For the first offense the tongue was to be bored, and a fine paid of twenty pounds. For the second offense the blasphemer was to be stigmatized in the forehead with the letter B and the fine was doubled. For the third offense the penalty was death. Until the reign of Queen Anne the punishment of an English officer for blasphemy was boring the tongue with a hot iron. (...) It is interesting to note in the statutes of Virginia and Maryland the honor that for decades hedged around the domestic hog. The crime of hog stealing is minutely defined and specified, and vested with bitter retribution. It was enacted by the Maryland Assembly that for the first offense the criminal should stand in the pillory 'four Compleat hours,' have his ears cropped and pay treble damages; for the second offense be stigmatized on the forehead with the letter H and pay treble damages; for the third be adjudged a 'fellon,' and therefore receive capital punishment. In Virginia in 1748 the hog-stealer for the first offense received 'twenty-five lashes well laid on at the publick whipping-post;' for the second offense he was set two hours in the pillory and had both ears nailed thereto, at the end of the two hours to have the ears slit loose; for the third offense, death. Were the culprit in either province a slave, the cruelty and punishment were doubled.... (...) In Maryland branding was legal, and every county was ordered to have branding-irons. The lettering was specifically defined and enjoined. S. L. stood for seditious libel, and could be burnt on either cheek. M. stood for manslaughter, T. for thief, and could be branded on the left hand. R. was for rogue or vagabond, and was branded on the shoulder. Coiners could for the second offense be branded on the cheek F. for forgery. Burglary was punished in all the colonies by branding. By the Provincial laws of New Hampshire, of 1679, a burglar was branded with a capital B in the right hand for the first offense, in the left hand for the second, and if either be committed on the Lord's Daye his Brand shall bee sett on his Forehead. By Governor Eaton's Code of Laws for the Connecticut colonists the punishment was equally severe. 'If any person commit Burglary or rob any person on the Lord's Day he shalbe burned and whipped and for a second offense burned on the left hand, stand in the Pillory and wear a halter around his neck in the daytime visibly as a mark of infamy.' A forger of deeds could be branded in the forehead with the letter F; while for defacing the records the offender could be disfranchised and branded in the face. A forger was branded in Worcester in 1769. A man who sold arms and powder and shot to the Indians was branded with the letter I. Counterfeiters were branded and often had the ears cropped. A conviction and sentence in Newport in 1771 was thus reported in the daily newspapers: 'William Carlisle was convicted of passing Counterfeit Dollars, and sentenced to stand One Hour in the Pillory on Little-Rest Hill, next Friday, to have both Ears cropped, to be branded on both Cheeks with the Letter R, to pay a fine of One Hundred Dollars and cost of Prosecution, and to stand committed till Sentence performed.' In Virginia many offenses were punished by loss of the ears or by slitting the ears. Among other penalties decreed to 'deceitful bakers, dishonest cooks, cheating fishermen, or careless fish dressers was 'to loose his eares'. (...) Brand and brank have passed away, the stocks and pillory no longer grace our village greens. We pride ourselves on our humanity, our justice. Therefore it may be well to note that we have now in the United States the most extreme code in the entire world in regard to capital punishment

When you condemn (and rightly so) countries that still practice such barbaric punishments, don't forget that you used to do the same (or worse) and yet you were able to progress and develop to a higher level. [...] Indeed, the past offers plenty of lessons for what to avoid - many of the examples you detailed were the remnants of European christianity, present in America, (and in America, the anti-human crime of slavery, racial discrimination, and anti-human acts upon the native Americans are further evidence that the mindset of the West was nowhere near as noble as some would have us believe) and still having adverse impacts upon freedom and liberty (though much less so in the present day than in days gone by). Fortunately, the founding fathers, while not having the wisdom to treat all humans equally, did have the wisdom to erect a wall of separation between church and state (unfortunately, Bush and his religious right-wingers are trying to poke holes in that wall). It is secularism and democracy that have enabled America to make the pro- gress that it has, and it's religious fundamentalism that remains a risk to freedom and liberty. Pertinent excerpt from Faith and Doubt at Ground Zero , pertaining to the history of christianity and the challenge for reformation in Islamic practice and thought ...

Abdelkarim Benoit Evans < This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it wrote in message <snip lies, damn lies, and statistics son, our first handful of presidents were quakers...so your stories of quaker oppression doesn't 'square' if ya' know what I mean.... Second, we're not talking about 300 years ago...(in which Islam was actually doing better than they are now)....we're talking about now, where dictatorships are the norm in islamic countries, where cutting off hands is acceptable punishment for shoplifiting, rape is punishment for god-knows-what, and women must wear curtains. You guys have DE-RAILED!

We often read in this newsgroup complaints about the barbaric (and very non-Islamic) punishments imposed in some so-called Muslim countries. Those who complain are right to complain. The vast majority of Muslims live in countries where the awful punishments reported here are never practised. In the places where they are, they are either the result of fanatical and deviant application of regligious principles or the misuse of religion as a pretext for gaining and maintaining political control. Often both factors are at work. The places that come to mind are Afghanistan (during the Taliban regime), Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Sudan and non-federal jurisdictions in Nigeria. Such practices are unheard of in places like Morocco, Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Tunisia, etc. What strikes me in the comments posted here is the apparent lack of any understanding by Americans of their own past in the matter of punishment and the absence of any humility resulting from their own past religious extremism. The role of a people who has progressed beyond their own barbarity is to encourage, promote and incite similar progress among other peoples, who are at an earliar stage of social development. It is not to forget the past and assume a holier-than-thou attitude. The following is taken from a much longer article found at: <http://www.rm-r.net/~getch/punishments/curious/chapter-11.html There is nothing more abhorrent to the general sentiment of humanity to-day than the universal custom of all civilized nations, until the present century, of branding and maiming criminals. In these barbarous methods of degrading criminals the colonists in America followed the customs and copied the laws of the fatherland. Our ancestors were not squeamish. The sight of a man lopped of his ears, or slit of his nostrils, or with a seared brand or great gash in his forehead or cheek could not affect the stout stomachs that cheerfully and eagerly gathered around the bloody whipping-post and the gallows. Let us recount the welcome of New England Christians to the first Quakers on American soil. In 1656 the vanguard, two women, Ann Austin and Mary Fisher, appeared in Boston, from the Barbadoes. They were promptly imprisoned and speedily sent back whence they came; and a premonitory law was passed to punish shipmasters who presumed to bring over more Quakers. Others immediately followed, however and fierce laws and cruel sentences greeted them; within four years after that first appearance scores of Quakers had been stripped naked, whipped, pilloried, stocked, caged, imprisoned, laid neck and heels, branded and maimed; and four had been hanged in Boston by our Puritan forefathers. ...Here is an account of a Quaker's treatment in New Haven for worshipping God in his chosen way: ' The Drum was Beat, the People gather'd, Norton was fetch'd and stripp'd to the Waste, and set with his Back to the Magistrates, and given in their View Thirty-six cruel Stripes with a knotted cord, and his hand made fast in the Stocks where they had set his Body before, and burn'd very deep with a Red-hot Iron with H. for Heresie. ' Quaker women were punished with equal ferocity. Bishop says of Mary Clark: ' Her tender Body ye unmercifully tore with twenty stripes of a three-fold-corded- knotted whip; as near as the Hangman could all in one place, fetching his Stroaks with the greatest Strength & Advantage. ' The constables of twelve Massachusetts and New Hampshire towns were notified of four rougue and vagabond Quakers named Anna Coleman, Mary Tompkins, Alice Andrews and Alice Ambrose. 'You are enjoined to make them fast to the cart-tail & draw them through your several towns, and whip them on their naked backs not exceeding ten stripes in each town, and so convey them from Constable to Constable on your Perill?' These women were whipped until the blood ran down their shoulders and breasts, and the men of the town of Salisbury rose in righteous wrath and tore them away from the cart and the constables. Quakers were ordered never to return after being banished from any town. In the Massachusetts Colonial Records of the year 1657 read the penalty for disobediently returning: 'A Quaker if male for the first offense shall have one of his eares cutt off; for the second offense have his other eare cutt off; a woman shalbe severely whipt; for the third offense they, he or she, shall have their tongues bored through with a hot iron.' They were also to be branded with the letter R on the right shoulder. They were called 'blasphemous hereticks' by the magistrates, and any who read books of their devilish opinions were to be punished with severity. New York and Virginia were likewise intolerant and cruel to the Quakers, but were less visited by them than Massachusetts. ln the despotism of early Virginia, under the Code of Martial Law established by Sir Thomas Dale, the fierceness of punishment was appalling.... Under the laws proclaimed by Dale, absence from church was a capital offense. One man was broken on the wheel.... Blasphemy was punished by boring the tongue with a red hot bodkin; one offender was thus punished and chained to a tree to die. A Mr. Barnes of Bermuda Hundred, for uttering detracting words against another Virginia gentleman, was condemned to have his tongue bored through with an awl, to pass through a guard of forty men, and be butted by every one of them. At the end to be knocked down and footed out of the fort, which must have effectively finished Mr. Barnes of Virginia. Yet Dale was an ardent Christian, beloved by his pastor, who said he was ' a man of great knowledge in divinity and a good conscience in all things'.... In Maryland blasphemy was similarly punished. For the first offense the tongue was to be bored, and a fine paid of twenty pounds. For the second offense the blasphemer was to be stigmatized in the forehead with the letter B and the fine was doubled. For the third offense the penalty was death. Until the reign of Queen Anne the punishment of an English officer for blasphemy was boring the tongue with a hot iron. (...) It is interesting to note in the statutes of Virginia and Maryland the honor that for decades hedged around the domestic hog. The crime of hog stealing is minutely defined and specified, and vested with bitter retribution. It was enacted by the Maryland Assembly that for the first offense the criminal should stand in the pillory 'four Compleat hours,' have his ears cropped and pay treble damages; for the second offense be stigmatized on the forehead with the letter H and pay treble damages; for the third be adjudged a 'fellon,' and therefore receive capital punishment. In Virginia in 1748 the hog-stealer for the first offense received 'twenty-five lashes well laid on at the publick whipping-post;' for the second offense he was set two hours in the pillory and had both ears nailed thereto, at the end of the two hours to have the ears slit loose; for the third offense, death. Were the culprit in either province a slave, the cruelty and punishment were doubled.... (...) In Maryland branding was legal, and every county was ordered to have branding-irons. The lettering was specifically defined and enjoined. S. L. stood for seditious libel, and could be burnt on either cheek. M. stood for manslaughter, T. for thief, and could be branded on the left hand. R. was for rogue or vagabond, and was branded on the shoulder. Coiners could for the second offense be branded on the cheek F. for forgery. Burglary was punished in all the colonies by branding. By the Provincial laws of New Hampshire, of 1679, a burglar was branded with a capital B in the right hand for the first offense, in the left hand for the second, and if either be committed on the Lord's Daye his Brand shall bee sett on his Forehead. By Governor Eaton's Code of Laws for the Connecticut colonists the punishment was equally severe. 'If any person commit Burglary or rob any person on the Lord's Day he shalbe burned and whipped and for a second offense burned on the left hand, stand in the Pillory and wear a halter around his neck in the daytime visibly as a mark of infamy.' A forger of deeds could be branded in the forehead with the letter F; while for defacing the records the offender could be disfranchised and branded in the face. A forger was branded in Worcester in 1769. A man who sold arms and powder and shot to the Indians was branded with the letter I. Counterfeiters were branded and often had the ears cropped. A conviction and sentence in Newport in 1771 was thus reported in the daily newspapers: 'William Carlisle was convicted of passing Counterfeit Dollars, and sentenced to stand One Hour in the Pillory on Little-Rest Hill, next Friday, to have both Ears cropped, to be branded on both Cheeks with the Letter R, to pay a fine of One Hundred Dollars and cost of Prosecution, and to stand committed till Sentence performed.' In Virginia many offenses were punished by loss of the ears or by slitting the ears. Among other penalties decreed to 'deceitful bakers, dishonest cooks, cheating
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